Author
NM8
VIP club member
Added: Mar 24, 2010 6:29 pm
Until people wake up, pull themselves away from their tv's and understand that goverment is nothing more than a business and the people who make the rules are just employees of that business which is backed and funded by large corporations nothing will change and the peoples votes and voice will mean nothing..

Individuls need to start waking up and saying " fuck NO". Agreed, a few hundred people doing this is pointless, but a few million! then things will change over night.

Sadly, I dont see this happening anytime soon.
Saetyr
Respected Poster
Added: Mar 24, 2010 11:35 pm
Deity wrote:
It's unconstitutional to force anyone to buy anything simply for being alive.


No offense, but doesn't this happen all the time? I mean, you have to pay for your passport, right? It's not like you have a choice. You pay tax over your income. You don't have a choice here either.
There are so many taxes you just have to pay without you having an option to choose.. Only with this one, you get something valuable in return.

I know opinions may differ, and I respect your point of view. And of course every major change comes with great resistance. I just think eventually, it is a good thing when all people have health insurance.
RagingBuddhist
Very Respected Poster
Added: Mar 25, 2010 12:37 am
GLOstick wrote:
No offense, but doesn't this happen all the time? I mean, you have to pay for your passport, right? It's not like you have a choice. You pay tax over your income. You don't have a choice here either.
There are so many taxes you just have to pay without you having an option to choose.. Only with this one, you get something valuable in return.

I know opinions may differ, and I respect your point of view. And of course every major change comes with great resistance. I just think eventually, it is a good thing when all people have health insurance.


I can't argue the income tax issue. There are no laws on the books that require anyone to pay it, yet we're pretty much obligated to pay or risk harrassment from the Internal Revenue Service. But, as far as things like passports go, that isn't compulsory. It's a choice to travel overseas and paying for a passport is just a part of making that choice.

Do I think everyone should have health insurance? Definitely. But, even with the exceptions that are being made for people under certain income levels, there are bound to be people who will have to choose between necessities like food and shelter and buying insurance. There are other things I don't like about the new law, like the way they're trying to hide the true cost of it, but just for their **** the choice on people, I think the whole thing is crap.
deepsepia
Poster
Added: Mar 25, 2010 12:49 am
Dimas23 wrote:

I note that the heritage.org website tells you it's a conservative research site so there's no surprise in what it says.

It would be a MAJOR surprise if it said anything to the contrary.

Just the normal right wing propoganda that you would expect.


Somewhat comically, the right wing has completely changed its tune.

The Obama health plan is pretty much what Richard Nixon proposed in 1974.

And the individual mandate, which makes the right wingers burn with righteous indignation? They thought of it . . .

Mitt Romney, the Republican (then) Governor of Massachusetts wrote an Op-Ed piece for the Wall Street Journal in 2006, describing the Massachusettts plan,

Mitt Romney wrote:

And so, all Massachusetts citizens will have health insurance. It's a goal Democrats and Republicans share, and it has been achieved by a bipartisan effort, through market reforms.

We have received some helpful enhancements. The Heritage Foundation helped craft a mechanism, a "connector," allowing citizens to purchase health insurance with pretax dollars, even if their employer makes no contribution. The connector enables pretax payments, simplifies payroll deduction, permits prorated employer contributions for part-time employees, reduces insurer marketing costs, and makes it efficient for policies to be entirely portable. Because small businesses may use the connector, it gives them even greater bargaining power than large companies. Finally, health insurance is on a level playing field.


He goes on to explain why an individual mandate is necessary:

Mitt Romney wrote:

Another 40% of the uninsured were earning enough to buy insurance but had chosen not to do so. Why? Because it is expensive, and because they know that if they become seriously ill, they will get free or subsidized treatment at the hospital. By law, emergency care cannot be withheld. Why pay for something you can get free?

Of course, while it may be free for them, everyone else ends up paying the bill, either in higher insurance premiums or taxes. The solution we came up with was to make private health insurance much more affordable. Insurance reforms now permit policies with higher deductibles, higher copayments, coinsurance, provider networks and fewer mandated benefits like in vitro fertilization--and our insurers have committed to offer products nearly 50% less expensive. With private insurance finally affordable, I proposed that everyone must either purchase a product of their choice or demonstrate that they can pay for their own health care. It's a personal responsibility principle.

Some of my libertarian friends balk at what looks like an individual mandate. But remember, someone has to pay for the health care that must, by law, be provided: Either the individual pays or the taxpayers pay. A free ride on government is not libertarian.



So that's what a leading Republican wrote in a leading Republican forum, with the input from leading conservative thinkers . . .

Curious how their tune has changed, isn't it?

read the original Wall Street Journal piece in full, here:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008213
Deity
Respected VIP club member
Added: Mar 25, 2010 3:37 am
Not every Republican is a conservative. Conservative does not equal religious nutcase, it's an interpretation of the US Constitution. It's a belief in Individual Rights and limited federal powers. "Limited", not non existent.

The federal government has been on a spree of taking on powers it was not allocated by the US Constitution. This farce called a Health Care bill is just one more huge power grab.
Sugarman
Very Respected Poster
Added: Mar 25, 2010 7:38 pm
I am locking this thread as it's starting to get ugly which always seems to happen when politics are discussed.

I'm sure there are better forums to discuss politics and I'll request posters to refrain from posting controversial issues that usually only lead to flaming other posters.

Sugarman