Happy & healthy, or abusive & degrading?

To anyone who has followed my posts and threads, I'm into threads
like "Good clean healthy sex", "Don't analyze, just enjoy", and "The Porn
Preacher's Question".

My position is simple: I love women. I want them to be okay. And I would
like, in a better world, for women to be treated with more respect, and
compassion, and other good things. I've been happily married more than
20 years, I've got daughters, and I just plain don't like to see anyone --
women included -- either:
(1) being abused or degraded, or
(2) lowering and degrading themselves, to a point where they begin
deliberately hurting, abusing, and degrading others.

I've just now started another new pic thread, with the title, "Looks like
they're BOTH enjoying it." In the first post, I included the following
statements:

"While upping some sets of this lady ... I couldn't help but notice how
much these pics created a sense of how much they BOTH seem to be
enjoying making love.

And seriously, guys (and ladies). Isn't that what good sex is SUPPOSED to
be about?

[PICS]

In complete seriousness, why would any intelligent person actually
choose to look at bondage, sadism, double-anal, or other types of sex
that involve deliberate and even vicious and mean-spirited abuse and
degradation, instead of looking at two healthy and intelligent people who
are using sex as a way to share things, and to enjoy life with a partner
and a lover, rather than a victim?

Hmmm . . . I don't want this >>PIC<< thread to get too side-tracked on
THAT debate, so I'm going to go start up a discussion thread, on that. If
you want to try to answer the question I've posed, please keep it to 1
paragraph here, and expound more fully on your theme and ideas, over
there. Here's the link:
[LINK TO THIS THREAD]

I'd like to use this picset and this thread as an invitation, and a challenge.
Start looking for any other HC/BG pcs, where it become clear that
BOTH of the people who are having sex, are truly and happily enjoying it.
And share some of THOSE pics, with the rest of us. I know I'd sure like to
see more of those kinds of pics. Especially in today's economy."

Now, I'd like to invite anyone who has spent serious and substantal time,
collecting pics and/or vids of women being abused and degraded, to do
any or all of several things, such as:

(1) Ask yourself, WHY did you choose THOSE pics and vids, rather than
OTHER pics of vids of things that can actually qualify as "making LOVE"?

(2) Try to see if you can explain in words, without gettting angry,
defensive, or abusive yourself, just why you choose to look at THOSE
pics, rather than THESE pics?

(3) See if you can approach, analyze, and answer the questions I've
posed, in an objective, analytical, and intelligent manner, rather than
getting angry and defensive, or vicious toward me for just asking a
straightforward question. If it helps, tell yourself the following, which is
absolutely true: I am not threatening you. I am not trying to censor you,
or stop you from choosing, on your own, what you choose to look at. I
am not trying to stop you from doing whatever it is you are doing. I don't
know who you are, or where or how to find you, and even if I did, I would
carefully and deliberately try to steer completely clear from you, and try
to not become entangled with you, just in case you are indeed an angry
or abusive sort of person. I am not trying to have your "special" toys, or
playthings, or secrets taken away from you. I am simply asking a
reasonable question, which -- and I hope you can understand this next
point -- actually deserves a reasoned, and reasonable, answer.

Let me stop now, and see if this triggers any replies. I've said enough, to
get this started. Now it's your turn.

well it would be ok if women appreciated a nice guy, unfortunately most women enjoy being bad treated, it's sad but true, if you're a nice guy a woman would like the ideea but it's more likely she would prefer an ,,evil" dude. So I guess there are people who enjoy being abused if you don't abuse them they wouldn't give a shit for you, it's sad but fucking true. Ya know human/ animal nature... So in a way we choose what we wanna be: a victim which is not ok or a ,,master", the roles may change from time to time, the ,, abused" can be the ,,abuser". Those pics, not all of them give me some satisfaction, I don't like women bleeding anyway, or anything that's too painful. You know RIHANNA , her boyfriend beat her really bad, but she is still with that dumbass, she wanna suffer I guess.

fucht wrote:

Besides the fact that neither I am really much into anything bondage- or SM-related, there are actually quite a lot of people, both men and women, that choose to do it out of consent.
I think you're taking this too far if you're stating that bondage or SM is automatically something in which one of the participants isn't doing it out of his or her free will.

The above doesn't really go for something like double anal. I think, almost every time, this is bound to come forth out of some sort of exploitation.
Still I can understand why people would watch it, but the fact that not everything you see, comes forth out of free will, is saddening, indeed.


Also; the fact that both a guy and a girl look genuinely happy on pictures, doesn't mean they are actually both enjoying it.
I know a girl from a big, adult webcam-site and she hates what she does for money. She really finds it degrading, but because of the money, she doesn't have a choice.
Still, when she's doing her thing, she puts on a smile, and looks like she really enjoys it.
So for me, the simple fact that a girl is smiling and looks happy, doesn't say too much.

This guy knows nothing about acting or people.

Mate, detach your logic. Look at your base desires. Reveal in their primacy. You are animal, just as we, and I, are. Sometimes something wrong feels right. Not always, when the socially imposed norms of society instruct us the behave. Don't get me wrong, I adore women. However, my primacy is dominant, and so we, as hungry dogs, track our sex, our needs, our itch that needs to be scratched. Be thankful that fkd up people can express their needs through dirty videos, instead of hurting those near to them. Oh, and grow a penis : )

Returned11 wrote:

"Detach my logic"? Not sure I understand that. It's an integral part of
anything and everything I do.

Why "revel" in the "primacy" of base needs? Seems to me the basic goal
of civilization, education, culture, etc is to enable the human species to
rise above the "base" needs, to a higher level.

Yeah, I need to shit, occasionally. But rather than reveling in that fact, or
doing it where people can see it (or where they will not be able to avoid
it), I just do it quietly, in a toilet with plumbing, and then wipe off (using
yet another good and useful advance, created by civilized people who
realized they could create a better way), flush the toilet, wash my hands,
and then go on to the next task. How would you propose to revel in
shitting?

Quote:

My concern is more for the halfway-fucked-up people, who still have a
chance to do better and make something worthwhile of their lives, but
who keep getting a hell of a lot of messages, urging and encouraging and
pulling them in a badly wrong direction, rather than toward a better way.

Quote:

A lovely way to end a most trenchant and useful comment. It's always
persuasive to end any remark with an insult, don't you think?
In fact, since I've already sired (and raised) offspring (and indeed,
healthy, intelligent, and generally happy ones, at that) I've pretty well
proven that mine is indeed present, and in good working order.

So -- you don't have to detach anything. And I'm not going to insult you. Having thought (again) about your comment, and having seen my reply, do you think you can improve upon it, and do any better?

I'm still pretty curious about your opinion on my point, that a girls' smile in a video or photoshoot doesn't necessarily equal consent or even real pleasure.

there are girls who dominate a relationship just because they are so "vulnerable" . GLOstick there are many girls who are faking many things : their smile, their orgasms , do we have to cry for them? I find more dangerous an " innocent" "victimwannabe" girl because their ,,innocence" is in fact the key to dominate. I'm sorry for the girls who are faking but who cares for the guys who are not faking? Don't suffer for them, they can find a satisfaction even for the fact that they are faking. like ''that dumbass is having an orgasm , is cumming and I don't care" also a woman even if she's faking can also have some satisfaction of being wanted and sometimes for a woman that means more than a real orgasm.

Heard of coprophilia? Your last post stinks of self-imposed repression, revealing more than you probably intended. Go read some Freud

NecroPenis wrote:

I think you're missing my point.
If I'm correct, the topic starter wants to convince us not to watch bondage-stuff, because the girls will not do it out of free will. Instead of that, we should watch "happy-porn", showing girls with big smiles on their faces, because this is less degrading.
In my opinion, the topic starter is taking his opinion too far. Of course, porn should always be a thing in which both parties are consenting, but to say that bondage- or SM-porn is something bad to begin with, is, in my view, just plain nonsense.


NecroPenis wrote:

Could be well true. But we're not talking about relationships here. We're discussing pornography. That kinda changes things..


NecroPenis wrote:

I don't think that's the same thing. We're talking about repression in porn; girls having to do things against their will. Guys will rarely be the subject of repression or abuse. Therefore, I don't think it's a good comparison in this case.

I suppose that these girls do these things not against their will and that they are told before what must happen. There are also guys who are beaten in these videos and films so the roles may change . Anyway I don't like watching extreme things like bleeding woman, nails and sharp objects. I like watching BDSM but not extreme stuff. I don't think that there is such thing as " healthy sex" it depends .

NecroPenis wrote:

I suppose, and hope, they do it out of free will indeed. And this was exactely my point. There's no reason to assume BDSM implicates abuse per se. So in the end, we pretty much agree it seems .

Your last phrase holds exactely the opposite of what I think, though.
I think all sex is healthy sex .

of course we can agree but we must admit that there are people who are happy when they are a little bit or more abused , they also find a pleasure in being " slaves". Of course that there are limits and the limits can be very subjective.

And judging from your avatar-pic, you're not the submissive one are you ?
Nah you're right in your last post. I like the occasional 'sexual slavery' every now and then as well . All within sane reason of course.